F-15 Suncom SOLUÇÂO 100% - Hall Sensor

[DocFlyer]

Caros Cmtes.

Depois de várias tentativas e estudando o comportamento do Hall Sensor e vários mecanismos (gimbals) que não obtem uma resolução e bom desempenho na leitura do campo magnético de super-imãs, finalmente resolví "a procurada solução para o joystick F15 Suncom".



A caixa metálica original mantinha a estabilidade do conjunto as custas de uma "guia plástica e uma mola de cobre". Eu queria que o conjunto trabalhasse dentro do invólucro mas era impossível pois os imãs de neodímio funcionavam como um freio, atravessando e travando o conjunto. Pensei em um conjunto totalmente plástico, incluindo a placa de fundo, que funcionou relativamente mas ainda atravessava e qualquer giro de 5° (graus) gerava erros de leitura no sensor.
Foi então que pensei em usar a força magnética que puxaria o conjunto (como uma mola) dando estabilidade e deslizando através de "placa metálica ferrosa" no fundo do invólucro. Pela Física, uma sistema de barra tem maior estabilidade quando preso pelas pontas, tendo de um lado a cabeça esférica acoplada no joy e do outro o imâ apoiado na placa metálica o sistema ficou Estável, Fiel na leitura do sensor e Compácto.
"Mito do reaproveitamento dos F-15 Suncom" DETONADO.

DOC - DocFlyer


Ferramentas: Alicate de corte, Alicate de bico, Estilete, Chave Phillips, Chave allen 2mm,  Soldador, Tira de lixa grossa G125, Caneta marcadora ponta fina, Tesoura comum afiada.
A Tesoura para cortar placa metálica é necessária quando esta é mais espeça como a indicada abaixo. *Obs: Custa barato, dura uma vida e você pode cortar até placa de circuito em fibra e outras...

Materiais: Hall Sensor (Alegro 1321-EUA-T), Imâs de neodímio cubo 6(seis) de 5x5x5mm ou 2(dois) de 5x5x15mm, Folha de Nylon 0,5mm ou aquelas de encapar apostilas (ter um lado liso), Graxa para plastico, Cola de acetato (Super Bon...), Cabo de drive de diskete, Placa metálica de drivers de disquete ou CD-ROM, Cabo de audio do CD-Drive.



Mãos à Obra
Quebre os lacres plásticos e puxe de um lado e do outro até retirar o potenciômetro.


Remova os componentes de dentro da caixa e desengate o trilho. Remova a mola e protetor, depois puxe os contatos com um alicate. Na parte interna corte duas travinhas plásticas com um estilete.


Limpe bem toda a graxa que possa ter nas peças. Não aplique solvente, apenas álcool ou detergente.


Caso tenha comprado os cubos de 5X5X5mm, alinhe-os numa superfície plana com uma régua. Passe um pouquinho de graxa nas laterais externas.


Roube um prendedor da patroa ou use um destes. Depois de centralizados cole com cuidado em pequena quantidade. Espere secar 2 minutos, vire e coloque cola do outro lado. Enquanto está secando prepare as películas nestas medidas.


Depois coloque um pingo de cola e coloque a pelícuca de 15x5 e com ajuda de um pedaço de película levante e cole o outro lado.


Enquanto seca, lixe para nivelar apenas o fundo do invólucro.


Depois de bem secos da colagem, monte o conjunto pressionando levemente.


Coloque a película de 30x8mm do fundo.


Recorte, lixe e nivele com alicate as placas metálicas de 35x15mm assentando-as no fundo (não é preciso colar).


Dobre uma lixa e lixe a base até o conjunto entrar com certa firmesa. Encaixe e faça um teste para ver se está tudo ok.


Também faça o mesmo no platô.


Depois recorte 7mm de uma das torres da direita e lixe. (como está na foto)


Remova as 3 capas de cores para identificar a posição do sensor e protege-lo. (observe a parte achatada virada pra você tendo os terminais da esquerda para direita *sinal=amarelo / -negativo=preto / +positivo=vermelho)


Na sequência veja como montar os cabos do sensor com cabos de audio de CD-Driver (evite desencapar com alicate ou estilete), use o ferro de solda rodando o fio e puxando


Remova a película de papel alumínio (quando houver). Observe para não cortar o "fio malha", que não possui capa.


Desencape pelo mesmo processo com soldador os fios internos. Gire entre os dedos para enrrolar as pontas. Depois aplique um pouco de solda.


Se você puder compre uma capa termo-retrátil (tubinhos pretos), caso não tenha pode tentar com uma capa de fio de bitola maior e depois de soldado puxe em direção ao cabo e aplique um pingo de cola quente para fixa-los.


Fase de posicionamento e teste:
-Risque uma linha no meio da tampa de metal contando 17,5mm da borda.
-Conecte os dois potenciômetros numa placa de joystick.
-Conecte a placa na USB e ative o controlador de jogos>testar.
-Com o controle dos pots todos para direita (figura), deverá obter essa posição nos eixos do controlador de jogos. Se não estiver é só virar o pot e empurar o controle para direita. Marque a posição dos pots (pode ser com um corretivo).




Curvando o sensor: 7mm marcados


Colando o sensor: Use uma chave de fenda pequena para não colar os dedos. Bem centralizado como está na figura.


Verifique se está encaixando bem. Coloque uma tira de metálica ferrosa de 30x5mm sobre o sensor para obter os 100% de captação magnética (seta verde).


Engraxando o conjunto:


Prendendo a mola: essa foi ideía do Sokol. Eu implementai o "Método pra fazer nas cochas e debaixo da mesa". (ai se a patroa lêr isso)


Depois da base e do platô fixados, você pode cortar uma ponta dos fios que seguram a mola e puxar. Teste os movimentos que deverão estar suaves. Conecte numa placa e teste os movimentos em calibradores de joystick.


Resultados muuuuito bons


Agora desenterre este excelente joystick fazendo ou comprando uma placa de circuito como a BU0836A e outras de boa resolução.
Espero ter ajudado e bons vôos.

Att. DOC - DocFlyer

[MadMax]

 

Parabéns DocFlyer, eu acompanhei o post pelo Gavca e o serviço ficou profissional, obrigado por compartilhar com a comunidade.

Abraço.

[DocFlyer]

Dicas se houver uma leve oscilação...

Duas coisas são muito importantes:
1-Fio que liga o "hall sensor" à placa de circuito deve ser com malha.
2-Um filtro, postada nos foruns russos (logo coloco o autor), onde montamos com um capacitor de 0,1uF e um resistor de 100ohms.


DOC

[DocFlyer]

[size=200]SAFE THE F-15 Suncom[/size]


Obrigado FN MadMax

DocFlyer

[Warty]

Hi DocFlyer,

First, apologies for posting here in English, but I can't speak Portuguese at all.

I am a long-time suncom user, and your solution is just the one I was looking for. Thank you for coming up with it, and thank you for posting all the pictures!

I've been following along using Google Translate, but there are a couple points where I'm confused. Could you help me with these?...

1. Materials: "metal plate drivers from floppy disk or CD-ROM" (Placa metálica de drivers de disquete ou CD-ROM). What is that? Is it the case of a floppy or CD rom drive? Is it some kind of mounting plate?

2. materials: "Grease for plastic" (Graxa para plastico). Would a silicone grease product work here? Anything non-petroleum based?

3. This step:

Roube um prendedor da patroa ou use um destes. Depois de centralizados cole com cuidado em pequena quantidade. Espere secar 2 minutos, vire e coloque cola do outro lado. Enquanto está secando prepare as películas nestas medidas.
----
Steal a clamp boss, or use one of these. After carefully centralized paste in small quantity. Allow to dry 2 minutes, flip and glue the other side. While it is drying to prepare the films on these measures.
----
Are you putting glue on the magnets themselves, between the magnets and the black pot case? What kind of glue?

4. THis step:
Depois coloque um pingo de cola e coloque a pelícuca de 15x5 e com ajuda de um pedaço de película levante e cole o outro lado.
--
Then put a drop of glue and place of pelícuca mulitplexed 15x5 and with the help of a piece of film up and paste the other side.
--
Are you putting 2 layers of plastic sheet down on top of the magnets?

5: this step:
Coloque a película de 30x8mm do fundo.
--
Place the bottom of 30x8 mm film.
--
Are you gluing that in, or is it, like the metal plate, just going to be held in place by being jammed there when mounted in the base of the joystick?

6: Having had this in place for half a year, is it still working for you? Would you do anything different? Still recommend it?

7: If I figure this out, do you mind if I write it up in English and post it around, with your pictures (maybe 1-2 I'd add, I'm not sure yet), with full credit to you of course? What I'm going to do is only use the hall sensors via the bodnar board, and leave the buttons wired up via the throttle/ps2 port (the buttons all work fine for me). I think this could be a very easy way to do a great upgrade to your suncom sticks.

I'm not going to include the picture of the crate of Suncom hardware, that just makes me insanely jealous. They go for a lot of money now on E-bay here.

[Sokol1]

Warty,

While DocFlyer doesn't appear here I try help you (I hope that my English is a little better than Google Translator ).

1. Materials: "metal plate drivers from floppy disk or CD-ROM" (Placa metálica de drivers de disquete ou CD-ROM). What is that? Is it the case of a floppy or CD rom drive? Is it some kind of mounting plate?

>>>Here you need a thin ferrous metal sheet, with about 1mm of thickness. Defective CD-RM of 1.44 floppy case are a good donators.

2. materials: "Grease for plastic" (Graxa para plastico). Would a silicone grease product work here? Anything non-petroleum based?

>>>Yes, a silicone (or Teflon) grease product.

3. This step:

Roube um prendedor da patroa ou use um destes. Depois de centralizados cole com cuidado em pequena quantidade. Espere secar 2 minutos, vire e coloque cola do outro lado. Enquanto está secando prepare as películas nestas medidas.
----
Steal a clamp boss, or use one of these. After carefully centralized paste in small quantity. Allow to dry 2 minutes, flip and glue the other side. While it is drying to prepare the films on these measures.
----
>>>"Steal a clothes pin from your wife." Or something like... to hold parts when glue then.

Are you putting glue on the magnets themselves, between the magnets and the black pot case? What kind of glue?

>>>Yes, he glue three magnets in one block, and then glue inside pot wiper case. He use CA (Cyanoacrylate) glue. Careful with fingers.

4. THis step:
Depois coloque um pingo de cola e coloque a pelícuca de 15x5 e com ajuda de um pedaço de película levante e cole o outro lado.
--
Then put a drop of glue and place of pelícuca mulitplexed 15x5 and with the help of a piece of film up and paste the other side.
--
Are you putting 2 layers of plastic sheet down on top of the magnets?

>>> Here, he glue ONE thin plastic layer (Lexan or similar) on top of three magnets, to allow ease slide against pot's top case. In pictures he use a second plastic layer as lever, to lift the first to put a drop of glue under this.

5: this step:
Coloque a película de 30x8mm do fundo.
--
Place the bottom of 30x8 mm film.
--
Are you gluing that in, or is it, like the metal plate, just going to be held in place by being jammed there when mounted in the base of the joystick?

>>> Just place inside, when put metal sheet over this, the magnet force keep both in place.

6: Having had this in place for half a year, is it still working for you? Would you do anything different? Still recommend it?

>>>Since Suncon gimbal use a exclusive potentiometer arrangement, you don't have so much option to deal with this. DocFlyer solution is fine. I don't know a different option - in X-Plane forum are a GranBichus Suncon mod, but he don't show how put HALL sensor in Suncom gimbal.

7: What I'm going to do is only use the hall sensors via the bodnar board, and leave the buttons wired up via the throttle/ps2 port (the buttons all work fine for me). I think this could be a very easy way to do a great upgrade to your suncom sticks.

>>>Good solution, since Suncon keyboard emulation is useful and easy to use. And you have Bu0836 buttons available to make a button box.

I'm not going to include the picture of the crate of Suncom hardware, that just makes me insanely jealous. They go for a lot of money now on E-bay here.

>>> These crate are a dream in end of 1990's.

I PM DocFlyer in another forum, soon they answer you here.

Sokol1

[Warty]

Sokol1, thanks for the quick reply! You are the one that got me started down this path.

One more question: what is the correct orientation of the magnets in this mod? Are they all lined up N-S to each other? Or are they lined up so they all have their south ends facing one way together, and then the south end is pointing toward the side of the pot-case (where the hall sensor will be)?

Still waiting on my hall sensors and bodnar board...

[DocFlyer]

Thanks Sokol and Hi Warty

I believe that Sokol has answered most of your questions.

About your question how to make a correct magnetic orientation. If you refer to the magnetic blocks? They are lined S-N in 3 blocks.

If you refer to, how am I to properly fix the sensor in the pot?
You should test with the sensor, connected to board
You have to align the sensor on the midpoint of the pot, without fix.
Move the lever fully to the right in both potentiometers, and you will see the axes of the controller panel game, totally right and down. (images)



DocFlyer

[Warty]

Thanks DocFlyer.

I was asking about how the blocks line up. I got the Bodnar board today, so I should be able to play around with it and figure the rest out.

One question I forgot to ask: does the "power" of the magnet matter? I have 6 that are "N40" and 6 that are "N50". Would using one power or the other produce a cleaner signal in the hall sensor?

[Sokol1]

Warty,

The idea is join the 3 magnet to act like one, so align NS-NS-NS

Instead 3 magnets 5x5x5mm you can use one 5x5x15 mm- if available.

I think that N40 magnets are fine - I read that if magnet force is too high, HALL is saturate.

Useful reading: http://books.google.com/books?id=R8VAjMitH1QC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Hall+effect+magnet+rotation+position+sensing&source=bl&ots=XvIIHhEwaw&sig=A9Zq63XpFoLm-nc4vS-o2AlGWk8&hl=en&ei=kKuBTb7NO4mC0QH_6NnHCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CFgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Hall%20effect%20magnet%20rotation%20position%20sensing&f=false

Sokol1

[Warty]

Sokol, thanks for the reading link. Helpful.

So, I have it "kind of" working. Before I put this all back together, I want to make sure I'm getting the results you would expect. Right now, I'm just sliding the pots around myself, I haven't set them into the stick yet.

When I calibrate, using WIndows Game Controller settings, and show raw values, the range for both sensors/pots is between about 1500 and 2400. (This is the 12-bit version of the bodnar card). If I take the magnets out of the pot case, and basically put the sensors on the magnets, I can get a range between maybe 600 and 3300 (just moving with my fingers, so it jumps quite a bit).

Is that about the best I can hope for? It's definitely calibrate-able. THis is the first thing I've ever done with hall sensors, so I don't know what kind of results people are getting. Maybe this is completely normal.

Sokol, completely unrelated, but you are THE Suncom guru: Have you done any mods involving extending the length of the stick? I was thinking about doing that, for better precision. (my gunnery is awful right now). Have you tried it? DO the springs hold up?

[Sokol1]

Warty,

Before test you need calibrated the HALL assembly in Windows Control Panel.
To tweak response curves use DView (available in L.Bodnar page) or Dtweak2 (available in wingmanteam.com).

At moment I dont make Suncon extension (but have 3 more F-15 to do something...), but have read positive feedback of people that made joystick extension. The rule of the thumb is: dont go above 15/18".

Sokol1

[Warty]

Thanks Sokol. The stick extension seems like it will work pretty well... those springs are really good in the Suncoms. I have it about 14" right now, feels pretty good.

On the bad side, I am not having much luck with my hall sensors. I've put everything together now, and done all the mechanical and wiring work, but I still only get a range of about 600 "notches" in Windows game controller calibrate screen. Which isn't horrible, but I was hoping it would pick up the full range (4096). The horrible thing is that when I get to one extreme of motion, it will jump to the opposite end. Not start going backwards gradually (I had that, adjusted position of hall sensor, it fixed it). It just flips from full nose down, to full nose up.

I am starting to try and find a regular slider pot that I could put in in place of the hall sensors, but of course that's difficult as well, given the apparently rare size Suncom used.

I was able to completely revive a TM Mac FCS stick I bought in 1997, and with the 0836A, it is INCREDIBLY smooth (it goes from 0 to 4096 in calibration!). I was meaning to just use it as a kind of temporary button box and to hold the 0836, but it was so easy to wire up the existing buttons and pots, I did that too. I had some button slots left over, so I installed a couple of toggle switches I got at surplus store 10 years ago, and they work great too. I've been using it as my main stick for a couple weeks now, love it. Not as much as a suncom, but it's the only working stick I have at the moment. Gotta love Leo Bodnar...

[SS.Ghost]

E pensar que eu "destruí" meu Suncom F15-E Talon  ( Era muito "criança" quando comprei, não tinha idéia do valor de tal "Joystick" e não tinha visão de modificador; bem diferente de hoje ( Internet ainda "não existia" ))

Mas acabei de conseguir uma raridade: Um HOTAS Cougar  ( Tô esprando chegar! )

en_US:

And to think that I once "destoyed" a Suncom F15-E Talon ( I was still a "child" when I bought it, had no idea of the value of such a Stick and had no knowledge of modding, not like today ( also, Internet "didn't exist" yet )).

OTOH, I just found a rare item at local ebay ( MercadoLivre ): A HOTAS Cougar, supposedly new ( Waiting for delivery ).

 
See ya

[Sokol1]

Ghost,

Fez uma boa compra, espero que por um preço sem muito "custo Brazil".

O calcachar de Aquiles do Cougar são os potenciometros usados nos eixos X, Y
e no throttle, semelhantes ao que se encontra em qualquer Logitech 3D PRO.
Nos rotaries são usados um modelo de caixa metálica de melhor qualidade.

Mas que mesmo neste forum voce encontra dicas para substituir os pots por outros
do comércio (processo que deverá repetir depois de um certo tempo) ou por sensor
HALL com vida útil teoricamente ilimitada.

Sokol1